solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 14, 2015 7:26:03 GMT
I once used a roll of bell wire for speaker runs into different rooms because I was able to push it between floorboards and under skirting boards!! Sounded ok to me.... I once fooled an audiophile that was visiting me by using steel cable (washing line) with a brownish transparant coating that made it look like it was copper. I ran 2 seperate wires in length and spaced them apart claiming that was the trick (a lower capacitance) and he really liked the sound. At that time I worked at a hifi store and could borrow things from there to try at home so tried some stuff now and then. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 9:07:29 GMT
I read your article on cables Frans & I must admit it's a compelling argument. Especially the trick you played on the customer  When I was very young I got it into my head that coax aerial cable sounded really good. I used the solid core for the treble and the sheathing for the bass on a pair of bi-wired Tannoy E11's and convinced myself it sounded better than my previous cable. I think I'd been using QED 79-strand at that point. In reality I used the coax because it was lying around & I was bored. Absolutely zero science behind it at all  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 12:35:10 GMT
Many audiophiles (I don't consider myself to be one) have an achilles heel. The power of suggestion. For Hifi retailers & cable manufacturers it must be like shooting fish in barrels (much like Dixons selling £60 hdmi cables to joe public). "Emperor your new clothes are the finest in all the land...." Damn HF. Just as I announce I'm taking time out a Final rep only goes and turns up to to engage with the community (beats google translate for sure) ....naturally I have already started bugging him silly about, of all things, pads  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 13:16:20 GMT
There is only 2 proper ways to find out if cables DO sound different and that is by not KNOWING what cable is in there or by nulling. For the first test you need another set of hands that pulls out the cables and randomly puts in a cable, then you have to guess/hear which one is in there. Both the cable swapper and listener have to keep score and compare afterwards. The listener must receive NO clues as to what cable is in there (poker face of the swapper and the unused cable must NOT be visible to the listener) Do at least 10 swaps (must be really random so can even be 10x the same cable) so takes a while. You can spread the test over a few days.. For cables that make obvious differences that should be very easy to do. Good luck .... I also did 'null tests' on cables. Not LS cables though, just interlinks. For LS cables the resistance of the cable and the impedance of the speaker as well as cable lengths make this test unusable. One takes the input signal and the output signal of a cable (Y adapters) and subtracts the input and output signal. All phase, amplitude, distortion, noise, frequency related stuff becomes apparant after the 'nulling' in the form of a signal (can even listen to this or record it) IF a cable changes anything in dynamics, FR, amplitude or something else it should be audible/measurable and certainly nullable as a change in sound can only occur IF the signal has been altered. Another good thing is that you can measure with real signals in a real setup. As not everyone has a nulling device (I had to build one myself) it is far easier to do a blind test (doesn't need to be DBT at all, just blind) hence my recommendation to test blind. Only for those that really want to know... Ah! Turns out I can't hear differences. Oh well . . . |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 13:34:15 GMT
You & me both Jeff. Money saved.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 14, 2015 16:51:00 GMT
Did you both try a blind test?
I did that years back where my wife randomly changed the cables, both without telling me and finally, I did an 'exam' where it was decided that there would be ten minutes between each listening session and I had to decide which cable I was listening to. Sometimes she didn't bother swapping.
She kept a diary and so did I so that we could compare.
I failed.
Unfortunately, just after I had bought a very expensive cable for my headphones that I hated in the end because it was unmanageable, heavy, plugs hit my shoulders, the headphones weighed down on my head and I was unable to turn my head easily. £300 or so.
So now, when I see people playing around with cables, I instantly want to save them the money but most are deaf to my warnings and do it anyway!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 23:27:59 GMT
I have a fancy cable I bought for my 650's. I thought I'd be clever and so ordered a 1m length from the headphones & a 3m extension. This would allow me to use it for portable applications. Well, what I hadn't factored in was the sheer weight of the connection at the 1m end. Ridiculously heavy, so much so that the cable is pretty much unusable as in it's full length form & it's too short to reach the Ember in it's short form. If I had the bottle I'd alter the 3m length to be the only cable and go direct to the earcups but I wouldn't know where to start and fear I'd end up with two ruined cables.
I live & learn.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 4:58:19 GMT
I'll clarify my original post slightly.
Headphone Cables.
When I was talking about hearing differences between cables I did not mean headphone cables. I have never heard any difference between any of the different cables I have fitted to any of my cans. I was really hoping for an upgrade and an improvement in sound quality when I used some very fine (and expensive) solid silver cable to rewire my AKG K240 Sextetts. I used the silver wire as the main cable and also used it to rewire between the drivers and the headband 'bars'. Try as I might, (and I really did try - after all this was expensive cable, this was 'better' cable!) I couldn't hear any difference, so to keep originality with these 35 year old headphones, I resoldered the original copper cable back in place.
Power Cables.
I use Russ Andrews Kimber-Kable Classic Powercord. They are well built quality items which have stayed with me for more years than I care to remember. The half-dozen I have were birthday or Christmas gifts, and I have no intention to "upgrade", since I think that 'well built' and 'electrically safe' is all that is required of a power cable.
Interconnects/Speaker Cables.
Now to the cables where I have heard differences. My perception seems to be the opposite of Gordons, in that for me, I have only (occasionally) heard subtle differences between speaker cables, but have often heard clear differences between interconnects. I like to have my speaker cables and I/C's from the same company and preferably from the same model range, so I tend to demo I/C's first, and if I like the sound sig it gives me, will buy speaker cable as well.
A few years ago I demoed I/C's and speaker cables from Van Den Hul. I was looking for more air and sparkle than my Chord Anthem I/C and Chord signature speaker cable were giving me. This was after I had changed from a Class A amp to a valve amp. The I/C was 'The First' metal screen and the dealer suggested 'Royal Jade Hybrid' as a good match for my valve amp and Bowers and Wilkins speakers.
Did it make a difference?
Yes absolutely! The bass was tighter, faster, and more defined, the mids were about the same (I couldn't hear any difference TBH), but unfortunately, the treble was way too bright. It was too much of what I was after. So I stuck with the Chord's.
Before each of my changes of cable, I have gone through this process a few times, researching in mags and online to draw up a shortlist of cables I think might help me towards the sound signature I'm after. I have tried, and mostly succeeded, in trying to listen to 2 or 3 different cable set-ups from different companies, mainly because of good dealers. Most times I have heard differences, sometimes slight, sometimes obvious. Almost always, although the sound signature has changed, I have decided that the sound is not particularly 'better', but just different, and I have not bought the cables. But sometimes, the sound sig has not only changed, but changed for the better. It has made my music more enjoyable in one way or another. It is then that I have bought the cables in question.
If this sounds like I change my wiring every month, I have given the wrong impression. In over twenty-five years of listening to music, I have only changed my cabling five times. My advice would be to find a good local dealer who will, for a small deposit, let you home-dem various cables (most will). And by the way, once you find a set of cables (or in fact any hi-fi product) that you think sounds better than your present set, don't be a smart-arse and hand them back to the dealer and then buy them on-line for £20 cheaper. If you find an on-line company that will do a no-quibble return, as I have in the past, then fine, give them a go. But if you dem from a dealer, who can give you the benefit of his years of experience in general and his expertise in a particular brand, then make sure you give the dealer your business in cold hard cash. Or one day he might not be there anymore.
At the moment, my amp and speakers feel like permanent fixtures, I have had both for more than five years now and I'm genuinely completely happy with them. I couldn't see me replacing them for any reason apart from complete failure and even then I think I would try to find second-hand replacements. My wiring now is Nordost interconnects and Speaker cable, but for my head rig the Nordosts were just too bright and I have gone with DNM stereo from my SM-6 to my X-10D, and from there to my X-V2. Interestingly enough, with little preconceptions, zero technical knowledge, and after many, many combinations, I have ended up with 'solid core' cables throughout my system, both speaker and head rig.
Did you both try a blind test?
Christ no! I've got a life and I just want to listen to music the best way I can.
If I plug in a new set of cables and hear a difference, and it’s a difference I don’t like, I won't buy them.
If I plug in a new set of cables and can't hear a difference, I won't buy them.
If I plug in a new set of cables and hear a difference, and it’s a difference I like, I'll buy them.
I couldn't give a flying f**k about phase, amplitude, nulling, distortion, noise, DBT, frequency, resistance, capacitance, or anything else.
Does anyone? Does anyone honestly think about these things when demo-ing a new piece of kit??
I have ears. My ears listen to MUSIC. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it comes down to "Me Likey", or "Me No Likey". My ears and brain might like a 'technically inferior', distortion-laden amplification system like valves, but it doesn't make my choice any less valid.
It doesn’t make my choice any less valid.
Research the term ‘authority beliefs’ as it refers to audio. Remember that just because someone tells you a thing is true, even though you might respect their knowledge, doesn’t make it so.
Trust your ears. Your experience is not somehow less valid than someone else’s.
The same goes for cable choice, or for choosing any other piece of hi-fi kit, for that matter.
Trust your ears. Your experience is not somehow less valid than someone else’s.
Don’t listen to anyone who tells you that scientifically, technically, there is no difference between two pieces of kit. Trust your ears. Your experience is not somehow less valid than someone else’s.
Don’t listen to anyone who tells you that because this piece of kit has the latest ‘cryo-genic, mono-filament, unobtaineum’ in it, that it is better; far, far better than your old last-years-model, rubbish bit of kit. Trust your ears. Your experience is not somehow less valid than someone else’s.
Don’t listen to anyone else, no matter what they tell you. Trust your ears. Your experience is not somehow less valid than anyone else’s.
Don’t listen to anyone else, no matter what they tell you. Trust your ears.
Your experience is not somehow less valid than anyone else’s.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 15, 2015 5:55:13 GMT
Now you're just getting scary, Jeff! I had to go to a Christening at church yesterday and the leaflet was printed just like your post above. The bold bits had to be said by the congregation and it affected me so much that I got up this morning and started saying.... 'Trust your ears. Your experience is not somehow less valid than anyone elses's.' The wife brought in a cup of tea and thought I'd changed religion. My blind test all those years ago saved me a lot of money! It's just 'earsay. |
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rafa
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Post by rafa on Jun 15, 2015 12:25:15 GMT
This I agree with! I see this person listens to a very big range of music and much of it, a view to take note of.
I have as well travelled this path and have arrived at Nordost solid core also, Blue Heaven for RCA phonos and Flatline Gold for my loudspeakers. I did have some large gauge and stranded loudspeaker cables but I needed the Nordost to control the bass and improve the middle frequencies. Your HiFI and the cables are there to make you enjoy your music, if it does not a change of something will help you get there if you select carefully. If a cable is better or not is completely the decision of the listener.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 15, 2015 15:16:17 GMT
Like I said before ....
It's a very contentious subject with those that heard and those that did not hear any differences.
No converts in both camps.
In the end all that matters is your personal experience and budget.
when someone "likey'"s he/she "likey's" that's all there is to it.
And to answer the question: Does anyone? Does anyone honestly think about these things when demo-ing a new piece of kit??
Yes ... I do... but in the end "Me Likey", or "Me No Likey" is what tips the scale.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 16:49:17 GMT
Now you're just getting scary, Jeff! I had to go to a Christening at church yesterday and the leaflet was printed just like your post above. The bold bits had to be said by the congregation and it affected me so much that I got up this morning and started saying.... 'Trust your ears. Your experience is not somehow less valid than anyone elses's.' The wife brought in a cup of tea and thought I'd changed religion. Muhahah . . . My fiendish plan is beginning to work!!   |
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Crispy
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Madrigal music is playing - Voices can faintly be heard, "Please leave this patient undisturbed."
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Post by Crispy on Jun 15, 2015 18:45:31 GMT
I once used a roll of bell wire for apeaker runs into different rooms because I was able to push it between floorboards and under skirting boards!! Sounded ok to me.... I have run telephone cable all over the place Ian and it sounded OK to me, I always thought that if the person on the other end of the telephone sounds exacly how you remember them - then it can't be that bad? I would advise anybody who is not too sure about cables to read this very interesting white paper by Roger Sanders: sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/54-cables-white-paper |
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 16, 2015 4:54:26 GMT
Sadly linky no worky
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Crispy
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Madrigal music is playing - Voices can faintly be heard, "Please leave this patient undisturbed."
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Post by Crispy on Jun 16, 2015 19:04:10 GMT
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